Are we being set up for another invasion in the name of Democracy?
I replied to somebody's discussion elsewhere on this site. I think it worthwhile to publish this as a blog. Reactions please...
I'm sorry to be a downer on such a well-intentioned discussion, BUT
a) Where do you get this idea that the first shot fired in the American War of Independence was "the beginning of a new age in human history"???
This is the kind of USA-centred view of History, as if the USA were the inventors of all that is good and decent, that is taught in American schools. And I speak as one who has studied American AND World History... in schools both in and outside the USA. It includes such ideas as
i) It was the Americans who won the First and Second World Wars FOR the rest of the World.
ii) That they did so motivated only by the loftiest of morals. Pure Good defeats Absolute Evil!!! (Are you aware that - until the Germans sank the Lusitania [a ship carrying - among others - US citizens] - the US Gov't had considered joining in the First World War as an ally of Germany... AGAINST Britain, France, et al? Or that the USA only entered the Second World War [against the "Pure Evil" of Nazi Germany] when attacked by the Japanese... AFTER years of making FAT profits by trading with BOTH sides?)
iii) It was Lincoln who came up with the idea to free the slaves. Actually, the USA were several years behind Gt. Britain in abolishing the slave trade, and Lincoln was talked into doing so by his political advisers - against his early opposition to the idea.
iv) That the USA are some kind of Beacon of Light and Champion of the Oppressed, the True Defenders of Democracy all over the World, the Inspiration to those who yearn for freedom under oppressive regimes. In fact, the USA "cherry-picks" which oppressed people it will "aid" and which it will leave to suffer. In fact, the USA have even been instrumental in the violent overthrow of democratically elected governments (ONE EXAMPLE: Chile in 1973) and the economoc and political destabilisation of MANY others (e.g. Nicaragua in the '80s) with which they didn't happen to agree. ("We don't like the government that you elected, so you're not REALLY a democracy!")
It is a fact that every time the USA wishes to intervene militarily in another country, it builds up popular outrage at home against the regime of that country. (I mean, can you imagine what kind of success the Gov't would have if it tried to start a war against Sweden - for example - unless it first got US citizens to hate the Swedes? Or at least to hate the Swedish "dictators" and to wish to free the poor, oppressed Swedish PEOPLE from those evil dictators?)
Let me give you 2 fairly recent examples: The US Gov't was negotiating with the Taliban (YES, those Taliban!) to build a gas-pipe across Afghanistan. When the Taliban decided they didn't want to go ahead with that deal, THAT's when those stories started up about the Taliban destroying religious monuments (works of art) and suppressing women. Do you really think that the US Gov't CARED about those statues of Buddha OR Women's Rights???
When the US Gov't wanted to step into the Middle East in a big way, they tricked Iraq into believing that they would NOT intervene in its private dispute with Kuwait. (Iraq was irate at Kuwait - a former province of Iraq, until Gt. Britain ripped it off them - for "welching" on their promise to help finance the Iraq-Iran War to the tune of millions of dollars). And then, when Iraq attacked Kuwait, to force them to pay their debt, a tearful young woman appeared on American television, PRETENDING to be a Kuwaiti nurse, who had witnessed Iraqi soldiers grabbing premature Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators and throwing them onto the hospital floor. What MONSTERS these Iraqis were!!!... Only it later turned out that that was no nurse... that was the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the UN, tutored to tell that emotive LIE to stir up World repulsion at the HEARTLESS Iraqis.
And that brings us to the subject of Neda.
Why is it that the murder of !,500 men, women, and children in Gaza in 3 short weeks at the end of last year, beginning of this one, called down neither official, nor mediatic, nor extensive public OUTRAGE at that huge crime, and yet the shooting of one lone Iranian stirs the Media and the public into cries of "democracy for the Iranians"?
Might it be that the US Gov't - and World Gov'ts in general - have NO intention of invading Israel (or even upsetting its feelings), but would REALLY like to invade Iran???
Is it any coincidence that Neda happened to be a VERY attractive - by Western standards - young woman (whose age has been variously given as 16, 18, and 26)? Would we have been as upset if she'd been a dowdy 47-year-old?
THINK about it! [And have a look at this: NEDA - “ Iranian freedom-martyr” ( says CNN...you better believe it )]
PLEASE! Let's be VERY careful about allowing the Peace Movement to be highjacked by cynical political strategists... to set up their next invasion of a country that doesn't kow-tow to the Almighty USA!
I'm sorry to be a downer on such a well-intentioned discussion, BUT
a) Where do you get this idea that the first shot fired in the American War of Independence was "the beginning of a new age in human history"???
This is the kind of USA-centred view of History, as if the USA were the inventors of all that is good and decent, that is taught in American schools. And I speak as one who has studied American AND World History... in schools both in and outside the USA. It includes such ideas as
i) It was the Americans who won the First and Second World Wars FOR the rest of the World.
ii) That they did so motivated only by the loftiest of morals. Pure Good defeats Absolute Evil!!! (Are you aware that - until the Germans sank the Lusitania [a ship carrying - among others - US citizens] - the US Gov't had considered joining in the First World War as an ally of Germany... AGAINST Britain, France, et al? Or that the USA only entered the Second World War [against the "Pure Evil" of Nazi Germany] when attacked by the Japanese... AFTER years of making FAT profits by trading with BOTH sides?)
iii) It was Lincoln who came up with the idea to free the slaves. Actually, the USA were several years behind Gt. Britain in abolishing the slave trade, and Lincoln was talked into doing so by his political advisers - against his early opposition to the idea.
iv) That the USA are some kind of Beacon of Light and Champion of the Oppressed, the True Defenders of Democracy all over the World, the Inspiration to those who yearn for freedom under oppressive regimes. In fact, the USA "cherry-picks" which oppressed people it will "aid" and which it will leave to suffer. In fact, the USA have even been instrumental in the violent overthrow of democratically elected governments (ONE EXAMPLE: Chile in 1973) and the economoc and political destabilisation of MANY others (e.g. Nicaragua in the '80s) with which they didn't happen to agree. ("We don't like the government that you elected, so you're not REALLY a democracy!")
It is a fact that every time the USA wishes to intervene militarily in another country, it builds up popular outrage at home against the regime of that country. (I mean, can you imagine what kind of success the Gov't would have if it tried to start a war against Sweden - for example - unless it first got US citizens to hate the Swedes? Or at least to hate the Swedish "dictators" and to wish to free the poor, oppressed Swedish PEOPLE from those evil dictators?)
Let me give you 2 fairly recent examples: The US Gov't was negotiating with the Taliban (YES, those Taliban!) to build a gas-pipe across Afghanistan. When the Taliban decided they didn't want to go ahead with that deal, THAT's when those stories started up about the Taliban destroying religious monuments (works of art) and suppressing women. Do you really think that the US Gov't CARED about those statues of Buddha OR Women's Rights???
When the US Gov't wanted to step into the Middle East in a big way, they tricked Iraq into believing that they would NOT intervene in its private dispute with Kuwait. (Iraq was irate at Kuwait - a former province of Iraq, until Gt. Britain ripped it off them - for "welching" on their promise to help finance the Iraq-Iran War to the tune of millions of dollars). And then, when Iraq attacked Kuwait, to force them to pay their debt, a tearful young woman appeared on American television, PRETENDING to be a Kuwaiti nurse, who had witnessed Iraqi soldiers grabbing premature Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators and throwing them onto the hospital floor. What MONSTERS these Iraqis were!!!... Only it later turned out that that was no nurse... that was the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the UN, tutored to tell that emotive LIE to stir up World repulsion at the HEARTLESS Iraqis.
And that brings us to the subject of Neda.
Why is it that the murder of !,500 men, women, and children in Gaza in 3 short weeks at the end of last year, beginning of this one, called down neither official, nor mediatic, nor extensive public OUTRAGE at that huge crime, and yet the shooting of one lone Iranian stirs the Media and the public into cries of "democracy for the Iranians"?
Might it be that the US Gov't - and World Gov'ts in general - have NO intention of invading Israel (or even upsetting its feelings), but would REALLY like to invade Iran???
Is it any coincidence that Neda happened to be a VERY attractive - by Western standards - young woman (whose age has been variously given as 16, 18, and 26)? Would we have been as upset if she'd been a dowdy 47-year-old?
THINK about it! [And have a look at this: NEDA - “ Iranian freedom-martyr” ( says CNN...you better believe it )]
PLEASE! Let's be VERY careful about allowing the Peace Movement to be highjacked by cynical political strategists... to set up their next invasion of a country that doesn't kow-tow to the Almighty USA!
Views: 41
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Comment by jimmsfairytales0com on July 15, 2009 at 10:41am
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Hi Asaf!
Thanks for your very extensive and thoughtful reply. I wish all Israelis - and Palestinians - were as thoughful and caring!
You ask me: "I genuinely wonder how you would solve it. For example, if you were the leader of the world with an unlimited power and you could just impose whatever solution you wanted on both peoples - what would you have done?"
Well, if I had that much power... You know, they say: "Anybody who could solve 'the Irish Problem' could do anything!" And I'm sure that that is even more true for Israel / Palestine.
So if you're going to give me enough power to "impose whatever solution you wanted on both peoples", I'm going to assume that I would also have the power to do the following:
Declare that ALL decent human beings really want Peace. And that anybody who doesn't want Peace is therefore not a decent human being.
Declaring that, therefore, ALL arms manufacturers and arms dealers are no longer to be considered stimulators of the Economy and patriots, but vile SCUM and MURDERERS! And make sure that they PAY for their crimes... instead of being paid for them.
Declare that ALL Peoples are friends, that there are NO enemies... aside from those who make a profit out of Death and Suffering (and I would throw the Tobacco Industry into this pile: Merchants of Death and Disease!)
That ALL the money that we are spending now on "Defence" (i.e. macho posturing, bullying, threats... FEAR disguised as Strength) (+ all the money being spent on tobacco) is to be used to improve conditions for EVERYBODY on Earth... clean water, education (WITHOUT imposing OUR education on them), food for all, decent housing, work with dignity instead of poorly-paid drudgery, safe, clean energy that isn't going to threaten our Children's future, health care (again: WITHOUT imposing OUR ideas of health on them [I'm one of those weirdos who think that vaccinations are dangerous... because they teach the body NOT to defend itself. There are some very intelligent, well-informed "weirdos" who honestly believe that the AIDS pandemic is the result of the massive vaccination programs of a generation ago. They may be wrong. But what IF...?])
"There just isn't enough money for all of that!" Well, if we stopped spending so much money on defending ourselves from our enemies, and spent that money on improving conditions for everybody - including our enemies - just maybe we would find that our enemies melted away... and friends would be standing there instead.
But then, this is only if you concede to me that incredible POWER. Something like the power that the US Gov't has. But they know that I'm just being naive... just being stupid, really. And they know that enemies are often the best friends that they can have... because they help to convince people that we NEED to protect our economic interests with bombs and bullets and bully-boys.
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There are 2 poems that I discovered today, both by Erich Fried:
A Jew to Zionist Fighters
and - if you understand German - Wiederholbare Feststellungen
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Comment by Asaf on July 16, 2009 at 4:23am
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Hi Jimmy,
By the way, I think that many evolutionary scientists believe that Aids and other pandemics, AND the tendency of the human beings to devour each other through warfare and other sorts of recreational mass killing, are mere manifestations of our being, after all and despite having forgotten it (and behaving like some mad mutation that got out of control) - a part of nature, that takes care of itself and sees that the crazy birth rate of the human race is balanced (hence a new epidemic every once in a while).
As for your plan to punish all arms manufacturing bsiness people, well, consider that even then, stones will be continue to be available for human beings and they will just go on fighting over the control of land and water like they used to in the dawn of human time, using rocks. Part of me believes that since the ARE wars everywhere and ever since, this probably means that there's something inherent in the biology of human beings that makes us violent and want to fight. On the other hand there's evidence to the contrary as well (maybe it's evolution that has made at least some of us subilmate our aggression and grow beyond it and even develop noble pacifist philosophies found within religions, such as "turn your other cheek" etc.). But now, as your suggestions maybe exemplify, we are getting a new kind of war: the forces of light (call them pacifists) vs. the forces of darkness (the masters of war). Because, you're saying, under the new world order, they have to pay their sins (arms manufacturers) - that is, not forgiven. Already this shows, in the way I view it, a human tendency to retribute, to revenge, to pay back, those we perceive as criminals. The thing is, we haven't established how exactly are they to pay...
But don't worry I'm not really judging your answer to my question of how you would have solved the problem, I also identify with it and with your passion for peace and anger with all those who expound wars. I'm just philosophizing about the claim that aggression, anger, and even hate, are probably, or possibly, inherent in all of us (regardless of whether the reason to hate is "justified" or "unjustified").
This is maybe why, I think, political solutions (based on realistic-as-possible ideas) always have to be promoted (as was indeed the case in Northern Ireland - BTW, really I'm not very much informed in this regard and very curious to know how things are really going on over there these days - are there really no tensions anymore, has this long difficult conflict really resolved?). I mean - I think there will always be all these human instincts, to fight, to want to get control, always conflicting interests etc. Between different peoples and even between different groups of interest within each nationality or religion or ethnic group (which is one of the main difficulties to get peace between different nations - there are always groups within the different nations who won't let it happen). There will always be conflicts, hence political solutions have to be found. I guess I wanted to ask you, which political solution you would have impose on this region had you been that limitless-power leader. (I don't think by the way that the power of the US today is limitless, I think it's a misperception, that even exists among some Americans, however, militarily they are as yet still the strongest power. But it is evidenced that they can't achieve whatever they want, militarily or by other means, and that sometimes that they even achieve the contrary). The main question I am asking myself is, whether a one-state solution to Jews and Palestinians could ever work. Or whether a two-state solution could ever lead to real peace between the peoples. Obviously, the fact is that most Israeli Jews would prefer a Jewish state to remain in existence, hence leaving only the two-state solution in option. As for myself, I wish there was such a degree of coexistence and trust between the peoples in this land that a one-state solution, not identified by religion, was possible, where the security and the freedom to practice one's identity and culture was still guaranteed. But I spare you of the need to relate to this really complex question, that I myself have no real answer for (I know what I want to be possible, I don;t know what IS).
Thank you very much for the poems (unfortunately I don't know German and I envy you for that), unfortunately I have to sign up to the website to be able to see them and for some reason I can't see the code image I have to copy to sign up...
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